ethical dilemma, on the rocks
The bar's speciality is mojitos and, as I looked around the room, I saw that everyone was holding identical tall thin glasses, with identical limes and flecks of mint floating on top of identical chunks of ice. I ordered a mojito. Lara ordered a mojito. "Your hair looks great," I told Lara and it did look great. Since the last time I'd seen her, she'd had it cut as short as a boy's, with a sweep of bangs that ended just above her eyes.
Lara put her drink down and put her hands in her lap. "I'm in love," she said. She told me all about him. They'd met at work. He had two black labs. He liked to run. "I think it's actually improved my marriage," said Lara. "I'm much nicer to Tim now. I mean, I'm not quite as bitchy as I usually am." I know, though not very well, Lara's husband, Tim. They'd gotten married the day after they graduated from college and had two girls, both tall and dark like Lara. He seemed like a nice guy.
"Tim is a nice guy," said Lara, "He's great with the girls and of course I love him but, well, you know." And because I did know, I didn't say anything and I looked over my shoulder, trying to catch the waiter's eye so I could order another mojito.
edited to add: I guess what I'm asking implicitly is what's the right thing in this situation? What would you do? What would you say?
edited again to add: Feel free to give your opinion anonymously. (just choose "anonymous" as your identity before posting your comment)
56 comments:
did the mojitos make the conversation any less awkward?
Painted Maypole: I don't think anything could have made the conversation less awkward...
I wonder what she expected you to say.
Did she at least pay your bar tab?
I don't get why people cheat and then tell their friends...are they looking for validation?
She needs a blog.
Well, presuming you don't support the idea of an affair, I think it's god enough to say, "I'm happy if you're happy, but this really isn't a topic I care to return to in the future, for reasons I'm sure you understand." If you smile and nod only, or get too deep with the dirty details, you may be seen as an ally, and the person in that position always seems to get burned.
I wouldn't know what to say. But then, I listen better than I talk.
On the other hand, your line: "And because I did know" kind of implies that you have something to add but that you don't want to?
I like DD's suggestion - have her start a blog!!
I agree that making it clear that you are or are not her ally is a good thing. You can communicate that you still love her but don't want to participate in conversations about this thing. You could go further, too... I think breaking the promise of marriage in this way is never "right." But how involved you want to be... is up to you.
This is my first visit to your blog. Wow, it's off with a bang!
Sounds like these are two people who should no longer be married. It's hard to stay faithful when the love is gone, and if you are unfaithful, the love is definitely gone. I know the oh-so-mature Europeans would say "ces't la vie" and have both an affair and a marriage. I ain't no European (country-ass emphasis added). I wonder if the new guy knows she's married? If he does, he's in it for the puntang, and she better get over the "love" she thinks she's in. 10 to 1 before a few months are out she'll be crying on your shoulder because she has fucked up her life beyond repair. So if you thought this exchange was awkward, just wait... :( Sad what idiots people can be.
That's the most amazing rationalization I've heard yet.
Cheating doesn't need sex, IMO, because the word itself denotes you cheating your partner and relationship of your time, energy and inner resources.
You keep starving something it will die.
You need something from your partner, ask.
If you can't resolve it, you make a new decision.
What would I have said? What have you tried to do for your family? Why is this the direction you went? What do you plan to do?
I want to pick up the thread of "do know" but won't just now.
You could always counter with something zingy like, "that's cool because I'm in love with your husband".
Are you wanting to give advice or are you wanting her to shut up with the over-share?
Either way I would advice the friend to work on this with a therapist.
Tough as hell position to find yourself in. A mojito doesn't cover that.
xo
"She needs a blog." DD? This? made me snort out loud.
Joking aside (and I love the suggestion to tell her you're in love with Tim), I might've come right out and asked, "why the flock are you telling me this?" Because she is looking for you to do something. And once you know what that something is, you can decide whether or not to do it. Who knows, maybe she's one of these "Stop me, shoot me now" types who was looking for confirmation that this was indeed, a bad idea. Or maybe she was looking for affirmation. Or maybe she was just making conversation. In which case, I would buy another round and start talking about the Super Bowl.
Yipes. Yipes. Yipes.
I have no idea what I would have said. Probably changed the subject quickly.
I have amazing issues with this sort of thing, and rather than let it sour a friendship (which it would with me), I would try my best not to think about it.
Oh my stars...I am cringing just THINKING about being in that situation....yikes!
Because I have a huge problem keeping my mouth shut, I probably would have expressed my feelings on the subject - assuming that she wouldn't have told me if she didn't want to hear what I had to say.
But still....yikes...talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place.
oy. awkward. sounds like approval-seeking behavior. I tend to not have filters with this sort of thing. but cheating really pisses me off.
I'd WANT to not-so-gently remind her of her wonderful family at home that she will hurt if she pursues this (oh wait, did she already?), and that she owes it to her husband to be honest if she's not in it anymore, and to be damn sure, before she wrecks more lives than maybe just her own...
BUT what I'd probably say is something like, you know this is really inappropriate and if you're looking for approval you've come to the wrong place... or maybe the first thing?
so what did you say after the second round?
~luna
I'm with DD on this one! Lucky you were in a bar!
With my best friend? I would remind her of the relationship she has built and the family they have. And then I would acknowledge her feelings and try to encourage her to wait awhile before acting on anything.
Any other friend? Probably the same thing, but I would need more alcohol.
What is there to say?
I'm guess I'm not sure what the ethical dilemma is. Then again, I'm speaking as someone who is happily married and has been in love with many different people over the course of my marriage. My husband has yet to complain about my "infidelity."
Of course, I, too, find that I am a much better wife when I have an outside love interest.
I've been in that situation, except I was your friend, and you were my best friend. I don't know what I expected from her; it had been so long since I had been happy and I felt so deliriously happy at that moment, I guess I wanted her to be happy for me. Looking back, I realize that was totally unreasonable.
I think the most you can do is listen in that situation. That is, if you value this friendship and want to keep it.
As a cuckolded spouse, you'd think I'd have some strong opinions on this. (can the female be cuckolded? or is that only the male?) And I don't, really.
Not entirely enough info, actually. I'm in love can mean a lot of things. And it all really depends on her intentions. Marriages can grow stale, and a brief intense fling, handled with enormous delicacy and ending amicably can freshen that up. She's been married over twenty years?
To be honest, I used to always think I might head down that path. A brief intense fling, a mature ending, and a stronger, happier marriage over a longer term.
Of course, it all could go down in flames, with enormous heartbreak and pain and lasting repercussions to two innocents (the children). I hope not for their sake.
Interesting. She does need a blog. :)
I don't know what I would have said. I have never had anyone say anything like this to me. I don't know of anyone who has cheated. At least, I imagine someone has, just that I never heard about it.
Thank goodness for the drinks, I guess.
Yeah, I probably would have ordered another mojito, too. (Well, no I wouldn't have, cause I hate them. But, I would have ordered another Barcardi and Pineapple Juice.) And then, I guess I would have let her talk about it. And probably said something about being careful and was this really a risk she wanted to take.
And I would have made sure she had my business card...but, that's just cause I'm in the divorce biz, sadly...
(But, truthfully, I do more divorces for people who are fighting about money than people who are fighting about infidelity. I don't have any hard numbers, but, I don't think that most affairs end in divorce...I wish I could find some stats on that, actually.)
Gretchen
Absolutely another mojito required. I woudn't be doing with this. She wants to play fast and loose with her marriage fine but she should leave her friends out of it. What are you used supposed to do with this info anyway - say she is doing a great thing?
Eek. Don't know what you should've done; I would've cut and run, but that's my style. It's certainly not a topic/activity I would want to be complicit with, for sure.
eeek, mojitos definitely needed. Honestly I'd probably listen since she's my friend. But I'd encourage her to try and hold back from an affair and the potential consequences.
I'd stay out of it. Unless you know the full situation. Sometimes couples have an understanding...
Even though you were hurt once, that doesn't necessarily mean that is what is happening now
Sounds like she was wanting you to approve of what she was doing.
Personally, I wouldn't have done anything because I hate conflict.
What I would want to do is tell her that although I'm not going to tell her husband, I don't approve and that she should think about what she is doing before she hurts her kids.
My mom cheated on my dad and even though they never told me, I found out anyway. It is almost impossible for me to trust her now. She wasn't just cheating on my dad (granted their marriage wasn't that great in the first place) she was cheating on us kids too.
I have been that friend. My best friend had an affair for a couple of years. She was in a bad marriage, not because her husband was an asshole, but because she just didn't really love him. If he and I had met under different circumstances (ie: not my best friend's husband) we would have probably dated. He was a great guy. They are now divorced, but she never told him of the affair. The hardest part for me was when she got pregnant with her boyfriend's baby. She knew for sure it wasn't her husband's because she hadn't been having sex with him. To ensure he didn't find out about her extra-marital activities, she had an abortion. It was torture to watch her do this. It was torture to watch her destroy a great man. It was just plain torture. In the end, I never said anything to him because I didn't want to be the one to hurt him because I knew his wife had done enough of that on her own, even without him ever knowing about her affair.
Hmmm,
Well I'd have asked if she was using a condom, or had gone for some blood tests. And then I'd ask what her plan was if she got something and had to explain to her husband why he needed to go get tested. Bring her down to earth so to speak.
I know what she means about marriage, and so do you, as you say. But in the age of AIDS, the consequences are pretty huge. As much as she wants to share her joy, she needs some realism in the picture, you know?
I agree with Aurelia above. You've got to be careful. Then again, she didn't say she had sex with him, she said she was in love. And yes, in my opinion, that is still a form of betrayal.
yikes, I just have no advice for you at all.
Well, now. There is a sticky situation for ya! I have no idea what I would or would not have said, but demand that she pay the tab I would have done. After all, free therapy session for her should come with a perk for you.
Good luck with that! (smiling)
Hmmm...that would be awkward. I think I'd go with some variation of "oh, you're in love? that's big news" and ask what she wanted from me.
I don't know whether I'd urge her to stop cheating or not--depends on the marriage, depends on the friendship.
You know what would bother me more than the affair itself? The "I think it's actually improved my marriage," line.
I'm kind of a blunt asshole, so my first impulse would be to say "Really? If your husband had all the information, do you think he'd concur?"
I don't have a problem with open relationships, but if only half of the relationship knows it's open, that's just cheating, and if you're going to step out on someone, own it. Don't pretend you're doing the cheated upon party some benevolent favor. Damn.
I do feel reasonably strongly that it's better to finish your marriage/relationship cleanly (as if) before embarking on any other and I might say something along those lines. I tend to be a downer in these kinds of situations and I'm too honest not to say anything so I would probably remind her that the grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence and she might want to think long and hard about what she might be giving up, and that you can never go home again and prolly a few other cliches. As for what's right, I suppose it's whatever you're comfortable with. There is no right here, that's the problem.
A friend of mine once had a friend of hers (not mutual) tell her she wanted to have an affair. Not with anyone in particular-- she wanted to find someone. My friend told her she didn't want to hear about it. But that was because the husband was a close friend too, and she really didn't want to know that his wife was cheating on him when she saw him. Of course that answers your question not at all, and I honestly have no idea what I would say. Depends on the friend and the friendship, I am sure. But yeah, the "improved my marriage" thing would probably bother me.
I cannot imagine for the life of me what I would say in this situation. I don't tend to inspire deep, dark confessions in people so I guess I can hope this won't ever come up. I think I would have a hard time not conveying my disapproval and concern. But, maybe, that's okay.
Did she expect you to, like, congratulate her or something? That's fucked up. For being less of a bitch to her husband? Blech.
Okay, I'm not going anonymous as i thought I would. And I haven't read all the other comments.
But as a wife who has been cheated on, I would have slapped her silly, don't care if she is my friend or not.
You have no idea the heartbreak and pain that husband will feel even if she hasn't slept with the other guy yet. Affair doesn't mean just the physical act. You can cheat on your spouse emotionally and it still hurts the same.
Sorry for the vent, this jut hit a nerve. I would say something to your friend, in a non accustory way, just say you won't be a party to her cheating. That you feel uncomfortable not telling her husband. This just isn't right.
But seriously I just wish people would take their relationships seriously, I don't care if you are unhappy in your marriage, divorce then sleep around.
I hope I haven't offended anyone. Hope you know what to say to her next time.
Fascinatingly cryptic, this post. I'm assuming the ethical dilemma you're talking about refers to you, not to your friend. In that case, toward whom do you have ethical obligations?
Personally, I think your ethical obligations with regard to Tim are limited. Certainly you are under no obligation to inform him of his wife's new love interest. She is the one to whom that obligation applies. Perhaps you have some obligation to dissuade your friend from the path she's on - but it doesn't sound like that will actually be possible.
It's harder to define what your obligation to your friend might be. At most, I'd say you are obliged to avoid unnecessary expressions of smugness and judgment - I don't think you're obliged either to (a) directly or indirectly support her newfound happiness, or (b) take her to task over her moral transgressions.
Perhaps the ethics of the case apply less to the individuals involved than to the principles. The principle of honesty might make you wish to avoid the appearance of complicity or support if in fact you disapprove of her affair. I'm not sure how far the principle of fidelity applies to your situation, though: you're not the one having the affair.
This is more a social dilemma than an ethical one, to me. Assuming that your discomfort arises from more than the purely TMI aspects of the conversation, I'd say that the challenge is to combine authenticity with courtesy. In your place, I probably wouldn't say much: the most I could manage might be, "Well, if I were Tim, I'd rather know."
I should add, perhaps, that I approach this issue as a wife who was cheated on (by ex-husband). There were a couple of people who knew about the affair before I did: my husband's brother knew, and a friend of mine had strong grounds for suspicion that she didn't tell me about. I didn't feel the slightest sense of betrayal or injury from either or those people: my feeling was that it was ex-husband who had the obligation to be truthful about this, not anyone else. The only exception I might have made to that rule were a couple of very close friends: if they had known (not suspected) about the affair I would have wanted them to tell me. Your relationship with Tim clearly does not fall into that category.
I've been confronted with this situation when out to dinner with a friend. I knew the friend's husband casually. They'd been to my house several times for parties, and we'd gone on double dates many times. Friend's husband was a wonderful guy. Now my philosophy has always been that there's no reason to cheat. If your marriage isn't working, tell your spouse, leave, and then find someone else. But I didn't say anything like this. In fact, I didn't say much of anything at all. That's because I didn't know why she was telling me this. In a weird way, it felt like a confession, but it wasn't like she was seeking forgiveness. No matter what I said, she was going to continue with her affair. After speaking with my husband (who thought I should mind my own business), I stayed out of it. But I feel terrible whenever I see her husband because he's still in the dark.
I think that my ideal response (as opposed to my realistic response, which would be to say "Uh huh?" and looked panicked around for the exit) would be to say something like "Why are you telling me this? It places me in a very ackward situation." WHICH IS TRUE.
I don't know enough about you, Niobe, to know how you felt, but I know how *I* would have felt. Because I am also (to steal a line from an above poster) a Blunt Asshole, I would have said, "What, exactly, did you expect to gain from telling me?" Then if she expressed a need for my support, I would have told her that I loved her, but I could not support her in this; that she was not only cheating on her husband, but on her girls, too. I don't know what kind of reaction she expected from you, but I can't imagine that any of my friends would think I would approve.
When a friend I wasn't terribly close to had an affair and announced it via her password-protected blog, I told her I was sorry because I knew her marriage was very unhappy to begin with, but that I still didn't think having an affair was the right way to go about things.
Sometimes I run off at the mouth a little too much, but I could never pretend I approved of something like this, especially if there are children involved.
That being said, I wouldn't feel it was my business to get in the middle and run to her husband, either.
Cheating, no matter what the reason, never solves any problems. It only creates them, as you have discovered. Your 'friend' has now put you in the middle of her new problem. I have had friends on both sides of the problem, cheater and cheated, I told them all the same thing. If you still want to date, don't be married. BUT, especially if there are kids, you owe them so much more than this chicken shit way out. Because no matter how "happy" the cheater thinks they are, they are also willingly destroying the trust and belief of their children that the people who they(kids) think they can count on above anyone else, to never, intentionally do anything to hurt them, chose to do just that. Because when you choose to cheat, you choose to cheat on your whole life, not just your spouse.
If she were my good friend, I would tell her that she owes it to herself and her family to honestly try to "fix" her marriage, Not hide behind an affair. She's kidding NO ONE with the 'my marriage is better' crap. Her marriage is a big fat deception. She's nicer b/c she doesn't want to get caught. If she can't be happy being married, then leave. Take care of her girls, find out what it's like being divorced, sharing custody, splitting assets, mending childrens broken hearts. Then she can date. And I'd never want to hear about the affair again. I mean what kind of person knowingly starts "seeing" a married, mother of two??? I'll tell you, a really self centered asshole who will always put his needs above her kids. That's who.
If she weren't a good friend, I'd order more drinks, change the subject and then after that, hang out with someone else.
That sucks Niobe. Especialy cuz it seems she is a good friend and no one wants to watch a good friend destroy themselves. What a bummer.
I don't know what I would have done. The "I'm better than you" judgmental side of me says you should have thrown your mojito at her, called her a "filthy whorebag skank" and left, but the armchair psychiatrist side of me would have asked her what she felt was missing in her relationship or in herself that drove her to the infidelity. This happened to my DH. He found out a close friend was having an affair and he did an intervention. The scumbag still left his wife and two kids (one an infant), but I never felt more proud of my husband.
As someone who has looked outside of my marriage for happiness, I can tell you without a doubt you need to tell your friend to snap the hell out of it and decide if she wants to stay married. If she does, then it needs to end immediately, and she probably needs to look for another job.
True, people can't help the way they feel, and if she really is in love with this guy and no longer is with her husband, then there is her answer.
It does not make a marriage better. Sure, she might feel better now, but her husband (when and if he finds out) may never get over it if this carries on and they stay married.
She told you because she wants to hear these things. Tell her what it will do to her husband and her children. She isn't thinking clearly at all and needs a dose of real advice. I would not hold my tongue with this.
People go outside of their marriages for so many reasons. It is a very complex thing, being in a relationship for decades. And really, the idea of absolute right and wrong just doesn't hold for everyone. Nothing is strictly that dichotomous. Not black and white, but grey.
That said, you have enough to be going on with that you don't really need to be put into a position where you feel awkward. If this is an uncomfortable position for you to be in, or if this is a conversation you don't want to have, then be honest. I must say I have learned a great deal about life through the morally ambiguous activities of others.
I think what I said would depend on whether or not I liked the husband. Assuming I did, I'd probably ask her what in the hell was she thinking. It would upset me to be put in the position where I knew she was hurting her husband. I wouldn't be able to be around him after that and I'd probably tell her so.
I have been in a situation where a friend was doing that. I was very angry at her, although ultimately I stuck by her. But I told her I thought what she did was wrong.
dear god i have no idea what i would have done except proceed to get drunk.
Running on empty
Wow, that's difficult. It sounds like your friend is seriously lacking in something in her life if this is where she is... and I guess I definitely understand the judgement going on in the comments above but I also think (assuming she's a good, otherwise moral friend) maybe she's looking to you for support and advice. Which would be, imo, that no love is that overpowering that it's worth ruining your marriage over and hurting your kids like that... If it's really true love, you can both wait for the divorce papers to come through. But I guess (and here's my judgemental bit) what guy takes up with a married woman while subsequently really wanting what's best for her??? I don't think such a man exists, and she's probably just deluding herself. If you can find a gentle way to say that....
Whew - well you've certainly gotten enough good advice above. All I can say is that I would have no idea. No idea how to be silent without judging or to speak without saying something even worse.
Many more mojitos for me in that situation.
Definitely agree with the others -- I hope you got at least a few more mojitos...
Sounds like your friend is suffering from a classic mid-life crisis. I just hope nobody gets hurt. There are at least four other lives on the line beyond Lara's ...
yikes! i agree with the others who think your friend is in a mid-life crisis.
what a (i assume suddenly) selfish person! "i am actually a better wife." after a mojito...i would have said, "wow, so effin another guy makes you a better wife?" all snarky like. which may be why i don't get asked out for drinks much.
she may not realize it, but she has drwan you into a conspiracy. and what an awful place that is for you.
i pressured k to quit hanging out with a friend of his who was having an affair ..because i felt that that meant he didn't believe in loyalty, morality and marriage.
i don't like it. i would distance myself, it obvioulsy makes you uneasy and if you two are in the same professional circles...that's just bad PR.
but i'd also be there when it all blows up in her face, which (and i am not saying that it should) it will.
I would probably try to find a way to gently suggest to your friend that she try to figure out what she wants from her marriage before looking outside of it. If she wants to stay married, she needs to focus on that and figure out how to make life better at home. If she wants out, she needs to sort that out before she starts seeing anybody else. Because the odds are she will be caught, found out, and it will not just affect her and her husband, but her girls.
And if she tries to justify her behavior, I'd probably step back and tell her I didn't want to hear any more about what she was doing.
Order another mojito, definitely. Then ask how she'd like it if Tim fell in love with someone else. And how she plans to break these news to the girls, because usually at some point it comes out. Make her think, that's all I'd expect to reach, if anything.
Hope the mojito was good.
Interesting topic. I know I'm coming to it late. But if she thinks a long term affair where she is "in love" is not going to be found out, well she's in dream land. It will most likely be found out.
A one night fling, however, is a safer way to go (assuming you are smart and use protection).
I think I might have told her that. LOL
I came here by way of superlagirl. Hi.
Having been there, I think she probably wants what all of us want in the thrilling beginning of a new relationships--to tell someone, everyone, teh whole world, about this amazing person you've found, who actually loves you, can you imagine it?
What she wants from you is probably to hear that you don't think she's evil and that she's still your friend. If you can't say those things honestly, then by all means, don't. But my guess is that she is not looking for you to condone what she's doing so much as not condemn her as a person for doing it.
It is an awkward situation to be put in, I understand that. Good luck.
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